The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Banknotes issued by Irish Private Banks ca1700–ca1833
User avatar
ThePloughman
UNC
UNC
Posts: 260
Joined: 04 Nov 2016 16:37

The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by ThePloughman »

The Silver Bank 1804, Alderman John Rose.

This note is interesting in that there is only one owner named on it. Were there many Private Banks with just one partner, or am I missing something?
The design of the note is similar to notes of a bank of the same name but with different partners named on its notes.
I have to see if I can find a pic of one of the other notes.

Three Shillings Nine and a Half Pence note. Zany denomination too.

Image
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

I have seen other examples where just one partner is listed. The legal maximum was 6 partners but I am not aware of a restriction requiring more than one partner. The odd denomination relates to the fact that it is equivalent to 1/6th of a Guinea. This denomination was issued to compensate for the lack of silver coinage and such notes were known as Silver Notes.

There was also a Silver Bank based in Malahide with partners, Talbot and Glascock. I attach an example of their silver note.
Attachments
The Silver Bank 3s 9d & Halfpenny 14th June 1804.jpg
The Silver Bank 3s 9d & Halfpenny 14th June 1804.jpg (100.17 KiB) Viewed 5436 times
Last edited by DOC on 10 Aug 2018 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Vellakare
Fine
Fine
Posts: 35
Joined: 01 Jun 2015 10:59

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by Vellakare »

3 Shillings 9 1/2 Pence is 1/6th of a Guinea in the Pre 1816 Irish Pound which was tarrifed at 13 pence Irish to 12 pence Sterling
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

Yes, that 13 pence Irish to 12 pence Sterling exchange rate is key to understanding how 3 Shillings 9 1/2 Pence Irish equals 1/6 Guinea.

1 Guinea is 21 shillings so 21 x 12 = 252 pence Sterling.
1/6 Guinea = 252/6 = 42 pence Sterling.
42 x 13/12 = 45.5 pence Irish.

3 shillings 9 1/2 pence = 3 x 12 + 9 + 0.5 = 45.5 pence Irish.

I think I understand it now ;)
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

DOC wrote: 20 Feb 2018 19:19 Yes, that 13 pence Irish to 12 pence Sterling exchange rate is key to understanding how 3 Shillings 9 1/2 Pence Irish equals 1/6 Guinea.

1 Guinea is 21 shillings so 21 x 12 = 252 pence Sterling.
1/6 Guinea = 252/6 = 42 pence Sterling.
42 x 13/12 = 45.5 pence Irish.

3 shillings 9 1/2 pence = 3 x 12 + 9 + 0.5 = 45.5 pence Irish.
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

Registration records indicate that Alderman John Rose registered his bank location as Bray (County Wicklow). On closer inspection of the silver note shown in this string, Bray is mentioned on the left side of the date. The note is also payable in Dublin at an office with the address, 26 St. Andrew Street.

So this bank should be listed in the index as located in Bray, Co. Wicklow. This is the first example of a private banknote from this county identified to date.
User avatar
ThePloughman
UNC
UNC
Posts: 260
Joined: 04 Nov 2016 16:37

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by ThePloughman »

There are a lot of similarities in the layout of the two bills pictured.
Different groups of partners. Different towns outside Dublin.
But a very similar wording and both payable in St Andrew Street, but at different street numbers.

Was there a link between the two silver banks?!
User avatar
Mac
Taoiseach • Admin
Taoiseach • Admin
Posts: 1354
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 15:05

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by Mac »

Here is an interesting note for 9 Shillings, Malahide Bank, dated 2nd May 1803, which is payable at 'John Rose Baker's, William St, Dublin', which lists Talbot, Leeson and Glassock as partners.

Is this John Rose the same as John Rose Alderman of the Bray bank, I wonder.

The hanging sheep logo is also different to that of the Silver Bank Malahide notes.

John-rose-Malahide-Bank-Nine-Shillings-2-May-1803.jpg
John-rose-Malahide-Bank-Nine-Shillings-2-May-1803.jpg (57.76 KiB) Viewed 2426 times
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

ThePloughman wrote: 19 Jan 2021 02:45 There are a lot of similarities in the layout of the two bills pictured.
Different groups of partners. Different towns outside Dublin.
But a very similar wording and both payable in St Andrew Street, but at different street numbers.

Was there a link between the two silver banks?!
John Rose Baker may be the link but the details are not yet clear. Further investigation is required !
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

Mac wrote: 19 Jan 2021 12:43
Is this John Rose the same as John Rose Alderman of the Bray bank, I wonder.
Interesting question and it is possible that Alderman John Rose and John Rose Baker was one and the same person. However, it seems more plausible that they were different people but closely related. Attached is a snippet from Watson’s Almanack of 1804, showing both names on the same page and with addresses in William Street. John Rose Baker is listed as a money-treasurer while Alderman John Rose is a Divisional Justice. More research is required to answer the question beyond doubt.
Attachments
Wilson's Almanac 1804.JPG
Wilson's Almanac 1804.JPG (83.06 KiB) Viewed 1989 times
User avatar
ThePloughman
UNC
UNC
Posts: 260
Joined: 04 Nov 2016 16:37

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by ThePloughman »

I guess they could be brothers or cousins or father and son, like some other bankers who reused their names in those days.
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

Watson’s Almanac of 1809 provides the membership list of the Royal Dublin Society (RDS) and lists both John Rose Baker and Alderman John Rose. I think this confirms that they are different people, although I think it is a fair assumption that they were closely related.

Incidentally, I came across the death notice for Alderman John Rose in Saunders’s News Letter, dated 7th June 1811. The notice simply reads:

“Died. At Sandymount, Alderman John Rose; an upright Magistrate, and an honest man”.
User avatar
Mac
Taoiseach • Admin
Taoiseach • Admin
Posts: 1354
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 15:05

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by Mac »

There are other examples of brothers or close relatives running different unconnected banks. Roche's of Limerick and Cork spring to mind: 4 brothers, two each running unconnected banks.
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

Here are some details from a newspaper notice printed in July 1803 which may explain why two ‘Silver Banks’ were eventually formed. It reads:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
The Malahide Bank
The Holders of our notes are requested to take notice,
that from and after Monday next,
our Notes will be paid in Dublin,
at the House of Messrs. Mason & Thomas,
No. 10 St. Andrews Street and in the mean time
at No.17 William Street as heretofore.

Malahide
July 13th, 1803
R.W. Talbot,
John Leeson
Edw. Glascock

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

So John Baker Rose, located at No. 17 William Street, lost the agency for the Malahide Bank in July 1803. Alderman John Rose, a probable relative of John Rose Baker, registered a new bank called the ‘Silver Bank’ in January 1804 while The Malahide Bank also changed their name to ‘The Silver Bank’ in 1804. It is not known if the split was amicable but the outcome was two ‘Silver Banks’, one covering north county Dublin, the other the southern part of the county and north Wicklow.

There is an excellent map on the Irishpapermoney website (located in the Introductory Section of The Private Banks) which illustrates the two separate ‘Silver Banks’

Image
User avatar
Mac
Taoiseach • Admin
Taoiseach • Admin
Posts: 1354
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 15:05

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by Mac »

Time to be adding the Silver Banks to the Private Banks section of irishpapermoney.com - we have enough notes and information to do a page on them now.
User avatar
Mac
Taoiseach • Admin
Taoiseach • Admin
Posts: 1354
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 15:05

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by Mac »

There are relatively few notes left from the 'Silver Banks' and much of what is remaining is very low grade.

I am about to add a page on them to the web site, and have three variants:

1. Malahide Bank 1803. Talbot, Leeson, Glassock, payable at John Rose Baker in Dublin.
became
2. The Silver Bank in 1804. Talbot, Glassock, payable in Dublin or Malahide in Bank of Ireland notes.

3. The other Silver Bank in Bray, Alderman John Rose 1804 - one note seen, dated 3 July 1804 (pictured in the first post of this thread).

I have not seen any notes of the Talbot, Glassock Silver Bank with a date later than that of the Bray note.
User avatar
Mac
Taoiseach • Admin
Taoiseach • Admin
Posts: 1354
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 15:05

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by Mac »

The bank symbol or logo is different on all three, two variations of hanging sheep, and a generic ‘Hibernia’ figure on the Bray note.
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

The latest date that I have seen for a Silver Bank Talbot & Co. note is 20th June 1804, picture attached.
Attachments
The Silver Bank Talbot & Co. 3s 9d & Halfpenny 20th June 1804.jpg
The Silver Bank Talbot & Co. 3s 9d & Halfpenny 20th June 1804.jpg (154.16 KiB) Viewed 977 times
User avatar
DOC
UNC
UNC
Posts: 673
Joined: 26 Jan 2015 18:15

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by DOC »

Here is a six shillings note issued by The Silver Bank, Talbot & Co. in June 1804.
Attachments
Silver Bank Talbot & Co. 6 Shillings  14th June 1804.jpg
Silver Bank Talbot & Co. 6 Shillings 14th June 1804.jpg (119.51 KiB) Viewed 823 times
User avatar
Mac
Taoiseach • Admin
Taoiseach • Admin
Posts: 1354
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 15:05

Re: The Silver Bank 1804, John Rose

Post by Mac »

Thanks for the 3s 9d & Halfpenny 20th June 1804. That greatly improves the quality of the example I have for the site page on these.
Post Reply